Good For Others Podcast

Being Fearless with Phantom of the Opera's Leading Lady Sandra Joseph

December 08, 2020 John Valencia / Sandra Joseph
Good For Others Podcast
Being Fearless with Phantom of the Opera's Leading Lady Sandra Joseph
Show Notes Transcript

Sandra Joseph is a history-making Broadway star, a #1 international Amazon bestselling author, and a keynote speaker. Her legendary run as Christine Daaé in The Phantom of the Opera spanned ten years and more than 1,300 performances. She earned the record as the longest-running leading lady in the longest-running Broadway show of all time. She has been seen on numerous national broadcasts, including The Oprah Winfrey Show, CNN, The Today Show, Dateline, The Early Show, The View, and Oprah: Where Are They Now?

Sandra joins John Valencia on the Good For Others Podcast to empower people to use their voices. Sandra explains, that as a keynote speaker, she is able to inspire audiences to become world-class performers and unmask what matters most in their lives and careers.

Sandra is the author of Unmasking What Matters: 10 Life Lessons from 10 Years on Broadway. She is also the co-author, with five-time New York Times best-selling author Caroline Myss, of Your Creative Soul: Expressing Your Authentic Voice. Sandra is married to her costar from The Phantom of the Opera, actor Ron Bohmer. They currently reside in Southern California.

John Valencia  0:05  
Welcome to the good for others podcast. I'm your host John Valencia. And with me today is our producer Samantha Herod.

Samantha Harrod  0:12  
Hey guys.

John Valencia  0:13  
Today's guest is Sandra Joseph. Sandra Joseph is a history making Broadway star, a number one international Amazon best selling author and a keynote speaker. Her legendary run as Christine and the Phantom of the Opera spanned 10 years and more than 1300 performances and earned her the record as the longest running leading lady in the longest running Broadway show of all time. She has been seen on numerous national broadcasts, including The Oprah Winfrey Show, CNN, the today show, dateline, the Early Show, The view and Oprah Where are they now? Currently, Sandra is on a mission to empower other people's voices. Her one of a kind of musical keynote program inspires audiences to become world class performers and unmask what matters most in their lives and careers. Sandra is a member of the transformational leadership council, an invitation only group of 125 top thought leaders. Sandra is also an author. She's written the unmasking what matters 10 life lessons from 10 years on Broadway. She's also the co author with five time New York time best selling author, Carolyn mace of your creative soul expressing your authentic voice. So welcome, Sandra.

Sandra Joseph  1:43  
Ah, thank

you so much, john. I'm so happy to be here with you.

John Valencia  1:48  
All right to kick off today's podcast. I'm going to ask you a few lightning round questions to get to know you a little bit better. How does that sound?

Sandra Joseph  1:56  
A lot nerve racking. Okay.

Unknown Speaker  1:58  
All right. Let's go. Alright. 80s or 90s music.

Sandra Joseph  2:02  
Seven days. 100%.

John Valencia  2:07  
donuts, doughnuts or cookies,

Sandra Joseph  2:09  

Unknown Speaker  2:11  
Jesus Christ Superstar or Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat

Sandra Joseph  2:16  
superstar without a doubt rockin

John Valencia  2:19  
Halloween or Christmas.

Sandra Joseph  2:22  
On Christmas,

John Valencia  2:25  
Night Owl or early riser,

Sandra Joseph  2:27  
O night owl theater person.

Unknown Speaker  2:32  
Would you rather have an abnormally big toe or an abnormally big ear?

Sandra Joseph  2:40  

Unknown Speaker  2:42  
And on a more serious note, who or what inspires you?

Sandra Joseph  2:47  
nature? Hmm.

John Valencia  2:49  
That's awesome. Why

Unknown Speaker  2:53  
nature inspires me because it is so thoroughly itself. Right now I'm looking out my window here in San Diego, at a tree and a hummingbird just went and landed on that tree and I can see it bopping its little head around. We have these stunning Ruby throated hummingbirds here where they their necks look like they've been adorned with sequins. And what I've learned about these little amazing creatures is they're you know, though, though, they be but little they're fierce. They're they're warriors. They're strong, yet they're delicate. They flap their wings 80 beats per second. And so that got me thinking, see, this is where the inspiration comes like I started going down the rabbit hole a little bit looking into that. Do you know the human vocal cords slapped together like that. So the hummingbird's wings beat 80 beats per second, a male speaking voice, the vocal cords beat 100 beats per second, and a female voice 200 beats per second. And when singing, it can be multiple times higher than that, like if I sing a high note. I've actually been had the frequency measured.

Unknown Speaker  4:17  
It can be upwards of 1000 beats per second, like the miracle of nature, to me, is a mirror of the miracle of human existence.

Unknown Speaker  4:30  
Wow, that's amazing. That's your you're a hummingbird.

Sandra Joseph  4:34  

John Valencia  4:35  
you're like 500 birds.

Sandra Joseph  4:36  
It's my spirit animal for sure. I love it.

Unknown Speaker  4:40  
All right. So before we jump into today's topic, tell us a little bit about your background.

Unknown Speaker  4:47  
I grew up in Michigan in the Detroit area to wonderful mom and dad and sister and a middle class to lower middle class family. Big Lebanese tribe on my father's side, and we spent most of our time with, with that side of the family. So I felt very supported. But I also had a lot of self doubt and insecurities. My older sister was brilliant and outgoing, and I was shy and timid and but we, I was fortunate that my family loved the theater. My dad, in particular loved actors and singers, and he did a little bit of acting as a young man. And they took us to see shows, they took us to the theater, and I fell in love at a very early age. With that particular art form musicals. I just thought were the most magical thing in the world. I didn't understand why, when you're walking down the street, there weren't like big group group dances breaking out and song, but I thought it was real. And I wanted to be, I wanted to live in that world. Yeah. So I eventually started doing shows, and in high school and college got a communications degree, I was afraid to admit that I wanted to try to make a living doing that. But eventually, I did move to New York and take the crazy risk of trying to turn it into a career, which, you know, it almost didn't happen. But eventually, it was in the right place at the right time. And I found the right part for me, so that that changed my life forever.

Unknown Speaker  6:35  
Wow. Well, thank you. So as we talk about today's topic, making your heart to sing, finding your true authentic voice, you know, that's, that's exactly who you are. I was fortunate to, to see you in a really amazing conference in Vancouver last year. And you were the keynote speaker, probably my favorite keynote speaker I've ever experienced. And I've been to a lot of conferences over my, my, my career, and you have a really wonderful way of explaining how you have overcome so much, and taken fear and threw it out the window, and really understood yourself and your self worth. And that allows you to be so confident and walking across the stage or whatever it may be. You do it with grace and confidence. And it is truly inspiring. So I'm excited for our audience today to hear how you've gotten to this part of your life and embraced all of these different qualities we have, but we used them to your advantage. So with that, let's talk about confidence, right? That's something that people really have to work on a skill that we can work on as humans. So did you always have a strong sense of self growing up? I know you mentioned you are secure. But how did that evolve over time? What were some of those things that allowed you or have experiences that pushed you to really become more self confident in your own skin?

Sandra Joseph  8:21  

well, thank you for your kind words, john,


Unknown Speaker  8:24  
I share my story in my keynote, not to talk about my self and my own journey, but to share what humanizes us all and brings us all together. And I think there's a perception when we see someone up on a stage. And there are was part of the most extravagant production and Phantom of the Opera wearing these expensive gowns. And I would get letters from fans saying, Oh, you must be the most confident or all that. All these things. And I thought, oh man, if they only knew if they only could see behind my mask. And being a part of Phantom made me hyper aware of the masks that we all wear, and we need them in some ways to survive in the world. We have to have an identity and we don't want to go around baring our souls everywhere we go. But it made me really want to start being more transparent and being more authentic so that people so I mean, theaters roll, all art really the goal of it is to hold up a mirror and show us who we are and show us our potential. And I wanted to use my personal story, to hold up a mirror and say I'm just like you. I am no different than all the self doubt voices in your head. I've had them in my head all along. And it's not that they disappeared. heared and that's how I made it to Broadway. It's that I learned how to work with them. I learned

Sandra Joseph  10:06  
how to

Unknown Speaker  10:07  
not let those voices sit in the driver's seat. I learned how to say okay, fear, okay? insecurity, okay? I'm not enough, I'm not good enough, blah, blah, blah, I see you, I am going to hold you tightly and, and comfort you. And now I'm going to put you in your car seat in the back. And you can take a little nap while I sit in the driver's seat. And I'm going to head toward this destination because that's where I, my heart really wants to go. And I got that lesson. At an early age. When I was in the fifth grade, I auditioned for a little solo in our fifth grade Christmas concert, and I was chosen by Mrs. Mater's My beloved blond haired young, I thought she hung the moon music teacher, and she chose me to sing these three lines. And when the moment for my solo came, I completely panicked. I actually before right before the concert started, I ran over to Mrs. meters. And I said, I can't do this. And I actually asked her to replace me. And she did. I mean, I didn't really give her a choice. I was starting to cry, I couldn't breathe, my cheeks were red and hot. And she knew it wasn't going to happen. So I bailed on that opportunity. And I and I got the lesson at a young age as I watched someone else step forward and sing those three lines that I had practiced and practice in my room. And I recognized, oh, it feels really awful to give up on yourself, it feels real, it feels like failure to want to do something and not do it. And I didn't want to have that feeling anymore. It felt like oh, this is a lose. Yes, it's scary if you put yourself out there and you step out in front of a crowd. But it feels equally if not more awful, to hold yourself back and try to stay invisible. There's a cost either way, so why not choose the cost that has the potential to bring you joy. And so eventually, I did push through that fear and and just, you know, the old adage, feel the fear and do it anyway. That's what I did. And and I started with every, with every attempt with every movement, through my fear, I got my spine strengthened a bit. It was by doing it, that I became more confident, I didn't become confident and then do

Sandra Joseph  12:57  

Unknown Speaker  13:00  
That is huge. I think one of the things that we've been hearing over and over as a constant theme in our podcast series, is this idea that fear can stop people in their tracks. And that can just really alter someone's trajectory when they think they're going there. And then all of a sudden, they're like, nope, and the idea of then saying, I'm not doing this, and quitting, and it can just stifle any sort of movement. So you know, for someone listening right now at you, me, you gave great examples. But what you just said was so, so wonderful. What's something that someone can say? Like, just start small? Like, what is it that they can be doing? All those things add up? Right? If just overcoming one allows you to feel a little bit more confident, right? Explain a little bit more like that. That's perfect. It's, it's wonderful. Yeah. So

Unknown Speaker  13:56  
one of the things that I find helpful is to you know, I don't I use the word fear, frequently in my talks, and my TED talk, I called it fall in love with fear talked about, you know, how can we really embrace this, but because I don't like to get too crazy about semantics. But one thing that is actually really helpful for me is to make a distinction between fear and what is really going on with with when we're putting ourselves out there in some way. And what that really is, is vulnerability. And once I name it, vulnerability, I find that I feel more a sense of agency and a sense of choice. Do I choose to walk toward this feeling? Do I choose vulnerability? Or you know, and we've all heard Bernie BROWN Now God lover, thank God for her. She's Yeah, just to recognize that courage which is a value. So many Have a share, to be courageous requires us to walk through vulnerability. And you don't get to connection without walking through vulnerability. And that for me is means connection with our self with our higher self with our purpose, with our conviction, our values, connection with others, if you stay hiding in the shadows, if you stay silent, and you don't use your voice, you're isolating in some ways, from from the connection that is possible. And connection and belonging make us feel alive, they are something that as humans, it makes life worth living. And you can't get to connection without walking through vulnerability. So if I name it, do I choose to walk through this vulnerability vulnerability, it's up to me. And I can say no, and sometimes I have to just live in that space of I can say no, and give myself that permission for as long as possible. And sometimes for me, it used to be that I would have to say, I can, I can bail on this like, up until the last second, right up until the day I'm going to walk on that stage and sing that solo or whatever it may be, give that keynote, give myself permission to have an out. And that's there from a if I need it. But every time I wind up saying, okay, I can do this. And so just to give ourselves that little shot in the arm of I can bail on this if I want to. But what but what's the choice I really want to make for my future for my future self that will have me look back and say, I'm glad I made that choice. And I think for most of us, we end up taking the risk. So just saying yes, I can do this. Yes, I can.

Unknown Speaker  16:55  
Wow. That's so wonderful. Thank you so much. All right, we need to take a quick break, but we will be right back. The Crohn's and colitis Foundation has been at the forefront of inflammatory bowel disease research and care for over 50 years. I've been a proud supporter of the foundation for several years. And I urge you to join the costume, whether as a donor or volunteer, there are so many ways to get involved. Learn more about research, education, and support at Crohn's colitis. Welcome back to the good feathers podcast. Today we are with the fabulous Sandra Joseph, who famously played Christine from Phantom of the Opera on Broadway. Sandra is here with us talking about making your heart sing and finding your true authentic voice. So let's talk a little bit more about what you've done to follow your heart. In every conference that I saw you in Vancouver, you definitely talk about understanding your own self, and letting your your purpose be your guide. And so not only are you an incredible singer and actor, you are also a really remarkable human. For those listening right now who do not believe a life like yours could be for them. What would you say?

Unknown Speaker  18:14  
Oh, well, I don't encourage anyone to try to have a life like mine or like anyone else's. Whenever we try to compare our, our journey to someone else's, we're setting ourselves up for disappointment and insecurity. And we can all do it. And I've seen this at every level, people on Broadway, who by most people's standards have quote, unquote, made it they often are looking left and right at other people who are doing better than they are. Well, I didn't, I didn't make it in film. I didn't go get the TV gig I wanted or first like we can do the Compare despair thing to ourselves at every level. And you know, we talked to the beginning about how nature inspires me. I often think about how the, the tulip doesn't long to be the rose, it is perfect in and of itself. And its job is to be come the fullest expression of itself. And that's my job and your job. And that's that's our only gig is to recognize that we each have a powerful, important purpose that can only be fulfilled through the expression of who we are not looking at somebody else's expression and saying, Well, I would really prefer to have beyond SES expression, you know, I'd really prefer to have Oprah impact, you know, we can, whenever we do that we just make ourselves small. It's just a way that the ego comes in and sabotages Feeling good about what we can contribute. And every single person can make an important contribution, whether that means your impact is to three people in your household. Maybe it's to your, your partner, your children, your sister, your friends, maybe you're, you're bringing your full presence and listening, and heart, to the people closest to you, man, what

Sandra Joseph  20:28  
a gift.

What a gift.

Unknown Speaker  20:30  
That is a beautiful use of, of someone's life. We don't have to do big, sweeping visible things in the world. And I think it's really challenging now with social media, we compare ourselves to, you know, influencers, and, well, they have X number of followers, or likes or bla, bla, bla. And it, it appears that all of that stuff is what's important. And I just don't buy into it being a numbers game. I value quality over quantity. And the only question for for us to ask ourselves is, am I using what's mine to give? am I sharing? What is in my heart that wants to be expressed? And am I giving the fullest care and and expression to what's inside of me to the people that mean the most to me and to the causes that I care most about? Without comparing? without judging, without buying into the small voices that say, I'm not doing enough? I'm not enough. It's not enough. That's just the saboteurs that that we all have. Yet we have to combat that with, with the positive voices.

Unknown Speaker  21:54  
And I'm sure in theater you, it's probably even more prevalent, because you have all these people vying for one role, maybe, and so much competition, so you probably weren't naturally just always in this, who's getting this who's not world and then being so gracious and grateful when you get it, but knowing that it may not last long. And I think that's why, you know, you having a 10 year run in a single role is so remarkable, because, you know, that's so rare. And so I appreciate you as why I framed the question that way, because I want people to understand listening that it's, it's the little things that we do in the world. And just because, you know, your career is on a stage, which is so wonderful, and I would be so envious to be on that stage with you. But you know what I mean, that's, that's in our own world, in our own circles, especially during COVID. Right now, life is so different, it really helps us realize what's that it doesn't matter who what we're comparing ourselves to, we should be looking inwards like you, like you've been saying to, to really understand who we are, have that connection with nature, and and really be our true authentic self. So thank you, that's, I'm really grateful that you brought that up, because that, that quality versus quantity piece you talked about as well, was is a constant thread we had we just had a podcast, and they just talked about that as well, about keeping those relationships and understanding that it should be about the quality and not the quantity. And what does that mean, as we you know, go in life and bargain and, and build relationships with each other.

Unknown Speaker  23:42  
Yeah, and and so, you know, john, the book that I wrote, is called unmasking what matters. And I could have written a book, I'm encouraged me, too, that was about getting the leading role or starring in the thing, you know, getting the success getting the prize, and I couldn't be in integrity, and write that kind of book that was only about the upward climb. Because what I know for sure, is that the journey upward is nothing without the journey inward. And that's what my book is about. That's what my message is about. Because we project. Externally, we live in this world where we see the roles that other people play, and we look outward, and then we judge ourselves inwardly for not measuring up to that or whatever. And here I was at the top of my career ladder, you know, I

Sandra Joseph  24:44  
got the

Unknown Speaker  24:44  
starring role. I kept it longer than anybody. I'm the longest running, whatever, you know, it's a thing. And yet, wherever you go, there you are, and what I felt was Oh, The outward stuff, the accolades, the achievements, they don't bring with them the sense of authentic self worth, that I thought that they would, I think we've all kind of been sold a bill of goods, if we think that achievement, or any external accolade is going to fill up the void, that is existential that's within us all, you know, we kind of, we all come in with this thing. We live in a world of masks, and, and we're looking at everybody's outsides and comparing how we feel on the inside to that. So I had to really recognize our value doesn't come from the roles that we play, our value is inherent. I believe wholeheartedly in the fundamental worst of every human being the fundamental dignity of being born as you, I believe there are, there are no mistakes, and we all have a role to play. But it matters far less what that looks like from the outside. And whether that looks like someone in a starring role, or a big influencer with a lot of numbers, followers and things. You can have influence and impact sitting alone in your room, filling your heart and, and sending out vibrations of love and gratitude. And you can I believe you can change life on the planet simply with your your own big, gorgeous, juicy, beautiful being with your heart. It's not to say we shouldn't do things in the world. But we're not human. Human doings. We're human beings. And, and I think we forget that in this fast paced world of never enough never enough.

Unknown Speaker  27:03  
Now you have persevered throughout your life. How do you keep come bouncing back when you feel like you have no more energy to give? And I think a lot of people are feeling that right now, especially with COVID. But so how do you bounce back and rejuvenate your your being so that you can be that loving, compassionate human?

Unknown Speaker  27:23  
I love that question, john, thank you. Because I have to be really, I want to be really transparent here and say that, you know, I I talk about all of these things. And I'm a keynote speaker and I run around on stages. And people listen to me and pay me money for my words. And you know that it makes one feel a sense of, Oh, I should always have something to say on that should always have an answer. And I'm figuring it out for myself during this time, just like everybody else. And I really feel that it's important to step back sometimes and be quiet. And that's what I've been doing during COVID. I I think there's a relentless treadmill of accomplishment and doing and figuring out and sometimes we need to shut it all off and go, go inward and get quiet. And rest. Boy, do we need a rest revolution. There's so much emphasis on performing. And I'm a I'm one I think one could argue I'm a pretty darn productive peak performer person after 10 years on Broadway and the keynote career and speaking all over the place. I need rest, I need rest. And and that's something I've had to really learn to give myself permission to. Yeah, because there's a lot of judgment, there's a lot of guilt. There's a lot of shoulds. And I have really learned the only way for me to perform at my best and be my best self is to really give myself permission to do nothing, a lot more often than my inner taskmaster would allow. So I rejuvenate by shutting off. I listened to music. I think music is one of the most underutilized resources for self care that we have. Music is nourishment for me. And I think we can all find a song that lifts us up or that lets us cry or that moves us or just helped bring us into the moment. whatever we can do to to practice really coming into our bodies because Present feeling your feet on the ground Ark, but in the chair, getting really into our bodies out of our heads, resting our minds, becoming more mindful, more present, these are all the things that I do to nurture myself so that I can exist in the world. And right now, with all this uncertainty, you know, I think it's more important than ever that we practice gratitude, we really marinate in what's good about life, what's good about other humans, which is why I'm glad you're doing this podcast. To celebrate humanity. That's not another reason to spend time in nature, to see how it renews itself, and give ourselves hope that we too will renew. Yeah, and come out of the stronger. Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker  30:58  
Now, if you could go back in time, and tell your younger self, something you wish you would have known back then, what would you have told yourself,

Unknown Speaker  31:07  
I would say, oh, sweetheart, relax, relax, and, and have more fun. Don't take yourself so seriously. Don't take it all so seriously. And recognize that your worth isn't out there, you're already worthy. You're already worthy. All those voices of not good enough. And the fear and terror of trying to prove to myself that I was worthy of the life I'd been given worthy of the oxygen I was using. I felt such self loathing in my young life. really serious self loathing from early on, right up through Broadway. Even when I was in that star dressing room. I had just a really mean spirited inner critic that would slap me around a lot and make me feel terrible about anything good that I did. It was still never enough. And oh, I'm so grateful to be on this the on the other side of 50 now, and it does get so much easier to be kind to be kind to him. I can't believe how mean I was to myself, I would say not get off. None of that. No, no, no, I think I was raised in this Midwestern paradigm of, don't get too big for your britches. That was a big phrase. And there was almost a pride in being self deprecating and staying small. And I bought into that far too seriously into that narrative and that I all I felt afraid to feel good about myself that that would make me somehow full of myself or that that was equated with hubris or concern. Yeah. And I had to do a lot of reprogramming my brain around that just to find a baseline of, of self worth, where I'm not better than anybody else. But I'm also not, as the beautiful writer Annie Lamott says, the piece of shit around which the world revolves. I often felt like that the world revolves around.

Unknown Speaker  33:39  
Yes, this is great. Well, all right, we have to take a quick commercial break, but we will be right back. The Crohn's and colitis Foundation has been at the forefront of inflammatory bowel disease research and care for over 50 years. I've been a proud supporter of the foundation for several years, and I urge you to join the costume, whether as a donor or volunteer, there are so many ways to get involved. Learn more about research, education, and support at Chrome's colitis Welcome back to the good for others podcast. Today we are with the amazing Sandra Joseph, who famously played Christine from Phantom of the Opera on Broadway. We've been talking a lot about your life and how you've used your voice and if it clap, we've been talking in the last two segments about how you've been able to find your true authentic voice throughout your career. And I saw you at a conference in Vancouver last year and I'm going to reiterate it again. It was the best experience ever you were just so eloquent in how you described your career and in a really raw and powerful way. And struck everyone with I got chills at points it just was, you have a you have a gift in telling your gift, if that makes any sense. And I think people struggle with explaining how they've gotten to the point that they've, they're at. And you have been able to reflect and understand and be gracious about the journey you've taken to get to where you are. And you're sharing that with the world in a really human way. And that is so beautiful. So thank you for that. So let's talk a little bit about what you're doing now. And these different conferences and Keynote speaking events you're doing. Share with us a little bit about what you're doing.

Unknown Speaker  35:46  
Well, thank you so much, john, it took me a long time to figure out how to share my story in a way that was other centered. That was the point it was not supposed to ever be about me. But sharing my journey, I hope helps other people recognize what's possible for them, which is not to say, oh, if you do X, Y, and Z, you can end up on Broadway or it was never about that. But we all have a gift. We all have gifts to share. And I didn't want anyone to suffer the way that I did on their way to expressing their voice and sharing their gift. And just to normalize that we we all have the same voices of self doubt and fear and all of those things. So I have been giving keynotes now as my primary career for the last Oh gosh, I don't know how many years now and I, I've

Unknown Speaker  36:52  
I've been keynoting. For several years now. My book came out in 2018 on masking what matters. And in 2014, I partnered with the brilliant Carolyn mace on an audio learning program called your creative soul. And what I'm doing now, since COVID, is taking everything that I know and making it virtual. I'm keynoting online, I'm doing virtual concerts. I actually fell in love with my co star and Phantom. And I married Ron Vollmer who was my Phantom. And so he and I love performing together and, and we are now doing virtual concerts from our living room.

John Valencia  37:45  
That's amazing.

Unknown Speaker  37:46  
It's fun, you know, I was very resistant to it in the beginning, I'm a stage person, I'm alive theater person. But I really have seen the impact that online can have that being in a Zoom Room with a group of people is a real, legitimate way to bring them together. And I've also noticed people are really starved for live music for live performing. You know, they it touches us in a way that few other things do. And it took us a while to figure out all the technology, get our fancy sounding, you know, audio mixing board and all that we've never done any of that ourselves. But we're doing virtual fundraising concerts for nonprofits, we're doing client appreciation events, with financial advisors, donor appreciation events, with nonprofits, with singing for corporate meetings, and keynoting for conferences, all virtually right from our living room. And it's really been amazing. So, so I'm excited for what the future will hold. I do think we will get back to doing in person eventually, of course, but I hope that virtual will stay a big part of my life because I really love the intimacy of it. People can everybody gets a front row seat. They're there they can see. I can see them in the theater. I can never see the audience. So I seen them in the gallery view and it's wonderful. And I can interact in the chat.

Unknown Speaker  39:30  
Well, the good thing is I know a lot of nonprofit CEOs are listening now and just general people who work at other and not necessarily nonprofits, but for profits too. So you are with Beth definitely be in an asset to any sort of events and I would encourage anyone listening if you have an event, she is just dynamite and you will be very, very impressed with how she delivers everything and, and she sings. So that's pretty amazing too. And I think When I will say that when we were in Vancouver, and I saw you enter the stage and I was like, is this happening? Is this real? Oh, okay. All right. She's doing a keynote. Okay. Yeah, there's no there's not an orchestra. There's, it's fine. Don't get too excited, john, she's not gonna perform and bust out a beautiful town. And then and then you, you, you sneak some in. And I was very, very, very, very excited for that. So, yes,

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